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Waterloo station ....

By Tonatiuh (Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:03:45 PM EST) (all tags)

The Soviets called:

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/19/visitor-to-london-vi.html

.....

....

and they want Orwell banned.....

Police state?

In the UK?

Never!

Slippery slope? Which slippery slopeaheeeiii....!!!

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Waterloo station .... | 41 comments (41 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

Loading... by ad hoc (4.00 / 1) #1 Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:32:59 PM EST

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--
The three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.

: Check your network cables by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #41 Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:13:30 AM EST

The 1's can't travel around corners so well.

[ Parent ]

He was a hippy by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #2 Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:38:04 PM EST

Probably hoping he had some drugs on him or something. This terrorism things a perfect excuse to crack down other stuff as well avoiding civil liberties issues.

I wonder how many terrorists they've actually stopped (i guess zero) and how many would actually be deterred by this as it's random rather than targetted.

Coppers weren't that bad though, they allowed him to film it.

Officer 2 by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #14 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:32:24 AM EST

Refused to show ID though.

In a public place, why would the coppers not allow him to film it?

[ Parent ]

Because it's against the law! by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #20 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:09:25 AM EST

Well, no it's not, but lots of cops seem to think it is. If you follow the "photography is not a crime" meme, it's something you'll hear over and over.

--
Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]

: Filming by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #25 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 01:59:56 PM EST

That's why most Americans don't think it is so bad...too many stories of cops going ballistic when seeing cameras over here.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

Honestly by ucblockhead (2.50 / 2) #3 Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:29:05 PM EST

Sure...I don't think the cops should have the right to do it, but those cops were pretty fucking polite to the guy and honestly, if the cops allow individuals to film them in the process of doing what they do, you are no where near a police state.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}

Still a police state by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #7 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 04:18:08 AM EST

Even if the cops are polite but can threaten with you arrest for no reason. I'm sure 99% of British coppers can be trusted with their extensive powers but there's the 1% that will be abuse them as police are human like everyone else.

[ Parent ]

Is it fuck by nebbish (3.00 / 3) #8 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 05:45:16 AM EST

A police state is a state controlled by the police.

I agree there are problems and civil liberties are being eroded, but can we stop with the exaggerated language please, it doesn't help.

You commie.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Truly... by Breaker (4.00 / 2) #13 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:31:11 AM EST

We are not far off the end of days when nebbish can call JtL a commie...

Onwards to 2010!

[ Parent ]

: Doubt who ever by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #29 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 03:18:28 PM EST

Wins the election is going stop this sort of thing. Haven't heard that Tories are going to repeal the Terrorism Act of 2000.

[ Parent ]

Yes, because being politely searched for by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #22 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:10:17 AM EST

no reason is just so civilized.

--
Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]

Fuxake by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #23 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:39:30 AM EST

It's the result of a law passed with consensus of the populace. It's wrong. It's repressive. But it doesn't make the UK a police state - a police state is one where judiciary, law creation and policing are inseparable.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Informed consent? by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #24 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:58:43 AM EST

The argument presented to the general public seems to be "OMG Terrorism or whatever crime is flavour of the month! Lets get rid of pesky things like habeas corpus, no unreasonable stop and search, reasonable expectation of privacy or warrants needed for communication interception."

[ Parent ]

: I know where you're coming from by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #32 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 07:33:37 PM EST

The problem I have is that if you start calling the UK a police state, which it isn't, what do you call it when it becomes a police state?
If you reduce these gradiations of democracy to black and white, your argument loses a lot of validity. Much better to present a balanced argumemnt rather than resort to hyperbole. That's just playing their game.
As for your point above, you're right. But by world standards this is an educated country. Where does the support for these laws come from? Let's address that and work it out, rather than just huff and puff.
Took me a while to work out this response - I respect your point of view.
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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

In which sense police does not control you? by Tonatiuh (4.00 / 1) #35 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:10:16 PM EST

By invoking the terrorism act they can stop you for whatever reason they feel like it (including none).

They have stopped legitimate demonstrations, a heckler in a Labour party conference and local authorities have hijacked these powers to check if your doggie poops in the park or if you are trying to game the post code lottery that is school catchment areas.

The police constantly complains that the current legal framework is not adequate to fight terrorism, politicians and a population that has forgotten why their forebearers sacrificed so much, are happy to give them almost anything they want.

DNA databases, ID cards, CCTV and powers to treat you as a potential terrorism without any proof. Police state, softly, softly, and like the proverbial frog in the slowly boiling water, we will not notice things are getting hotter until we are fully cooked.

Once all the trappings of the Police State are in place there is no way back. This is a white and black issue, because it is a matter of principle, as a society we must decide if we want to live free and democratically or not. As with pregnancy you can't be half free. You either are, or are not. Half measures means you have ceded your freedom, once taken you are no longer free.

The chap in the video was arbitrarily detained for absolutely no reason whatsoever. That is the law, it is a bad law because leaves the populace completely open to be abused with absolutely no recourse, I think anybody that does not feel physically sick when watching this video has already decided that freedom is worth nothing anymore.

For bunnies sakes. Time to read Franz Kafka (how many people even know who he was?).

Random searches is lazy policing, solves no problem and only instils fear and uncertainty on the population without addressing the root cause of terrorism and other crimes.

It has been said that there are around 2000 people in the UK that would be willing to commit acts of terrorism. We need at most 6000 people shadowing them 24x7 (3 for each suspect) plus logistical support. Lets say it is 20000 intelligence people. At £50000 a head (I am generous) that is 1 billion quid/year.

Scrap the useless ID card scheme and we would be protected for 10 years against terrorism, with a better chance to prevent it. Scrap other useless non measures (that seem to benefit only cronies of some blinded politicians) and the money should go much further.

Random searches is the penny pinching of the fight against pseudo religious zealots.

[ Parent ]

police state my arse by Merekat (4.00 / 5) #9 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 05:49:52 AM EST

It is a tabloid state. Which is about as accountable directly but more all yer own fault.

[ Parent ]

I rarely read the tabloids by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #10 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 06:44:30 AM EST

But they set the news agenda even for the "qualities" and the beeb. It's a horrible symbiosis of politicians and the media with both using the other, pandering to the neaderthal prejeudices and horrible sentimentality of middle england.

[ Parent ]

: Yeah by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #11 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 06:59:43 AM EST

Unfortunately most people support these anti-terrorism laws.
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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Vietnamese, East German and Cuban police.... by Tonatiuh (2.00 / 0) #33 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 07:45:29 PM EST

... are normally mightily nice.

But to prise the coppers in this video while glossing over the bigger issue is to miss the point completely.

[ Parent ]

: I get the point by ucblockhead (3.00 / 2) #34 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 07:59:18 PM EST

But there's a different between a democratically elected government running roughshod over civil liberties at the behest of the public and a totalitarian state making the rules as it goes.

As regards to the cops, I'm merely saying they are far less fascistic than those in the United States.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

How about some actual information? by LinDze (2.00 / 0) #4 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 01:31:01 AM EST

The russian word vokzal, a train station, is based on Vauxhall. Vauxhall (London) was a premier station during the time that Russia was building their rail network.

-Lin Dze
Arbeit Macht Frei

Can we get a summary here? by ammoniacal (4.00 / 2) #5 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 01:57:31 AM EST

I hate giving Boing Boing any ad revenue.

This coomenat has be n soidnsord by hurricanbe ice malt liqur

Word up. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 2) #6 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 02:59:55 AM EST

I have a strict no-follow policy on these things.

-
You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

In Soviet UKia by Breaker (4.00 / 2) #16 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:33:50 AM EST

You can have your person and bags searched. If you refuse, they can arrest you.

[ Parent ]

Video by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #26 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 02:02:49 PM EST

It is a long video of some guy getting his bag and person searched. Summary: police politely inform him that he has fuckall right to stop it, but are otherwise vary between one who is perfectly polite and one who is a bit surly.

Summary: public streets in the UK are apparently just like American airports.

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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

Correction by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #28 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 03:14:59 PM EST

Not a street but a very major railway terminus in London. I bet Penn station in New York has fairly heavy security too.

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't count on it by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #37 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 09:26:52 PM EST

US railways are pretty much "low visibility"*. As far as I know, Amtrak (the US subsidised railway) has had plenty of years where it had worse safety records than the airlines, even after major crashes. Complete non-story. Any policing there is done because drug dealers figured out their mules were safer on the train: no big stories about busting someone on the train.

This is true even taking into account that the best way to get from DC-NYC and back is via rail (the DCia train station is next to the Capitol building), which has been true longer than the y2k+1 craziness.

Wumpus

* Don't even try to compare being blown up on the silver liner (might be an old name) to being gunned down while pumping gas (a former terror in these parts). While plenty of people ride the subway, very few people can expect to ride Amtrak more than once a year (once a decade is more like it).

[ Parent ]

Unfortunately by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #38 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 09:43:11 PM EST

Railways and metro systems are high visibilty targets in Europe as evidenced by the Madrid and London bombings. They have airport style security checks on the international Eurostar trains running between London, Paris and Brussels via the Channel Tunnel although not quite as bad. It's obviously impossible at major commuter stations like Waterloo.

[ Parent ]

: Just replying to the comment by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #39 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:44:40 PM EST

I was simply pointing out that the only reason to attack Penn station (going from 30+ year old memory) is because it is underneath Madison Square Garden (fairly famous place that used to be the boxing capital of the US). USia is simply too spread out to make anyone bother with intrusive security checks even in Penn station. The security theater would go mostly un-noticed and certainly unremarked on in the paper (even after considering the importance of the DC-NYC run to syndicated collumnists).
Wumpus

[ Parent ]

When traveling on rail by yankeehack (2.00 / 0) #40 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 11:50:17 PM EST

the security guys (city and/or transit police) tend to deal with the homeless/crazies/druggies/teenage runaways more so than anything else.

I think I've been on an Amtrak train once that had a dog and a handler, but that was only once and that was for a train which was going to Miami (i.e. dogs were of the drug sniffing type).

Once on Amtrak, you do have to show ID and sign your ticket - and the conductors, while mostly not surly, are useless. On the regional rails, no ID checks.

Aside from something happening at a major station scenario, unless a train was taken out on a bridge and derailed, the tracks are so out of the way from major population centers the best you would do is foul up train traffic for a day or two.

For example, there is a miles long train only (both Amtrak and NJ Transit) bridge in the NJ Meadowlands (between Newark, NJ and Lower Manhattan) that freaks me out since emergency vehicles just can't get at it. As a rider, you'd be fucked if anything happened there or in the under the Hudson River train tunnel.

And really, the trains are unreliable for on time transport (Amtrak is off the most on the East Coast), that sure as hell wouldn't be any different than the problems we have with a snow storm.
****
You know what is funny? I voted for McCain in 2000 and Obama in 2008. (And let's not forget Edwards in 1998.)
[ Parent ]

I heard a story by Herring (4.00 / 1) #12 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:14:45 AM EST

yesterday about a guy who filmed a police van reversing the wrong way up a one-way street to get to a chip shop. The coppers arrested him and kept him until after midnight then release him without charge. OK, they were made to apologise but there's too much of this sort of thing.

At least when the Tories got in, they didn't say their priorities were "Mining, Mining, Mining" - Mark Steel

Camera confiscation by gpig (4.00 / 2) #15 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:32:29 AM EST

I've also heard of police arresting people filming or photographing demonstrations, under 'harassment' laws (intended for stalkers). They would then release them without charge, but the cameras, taken as evidence, would be returned without the tapes or with images deleted.
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(, ,') -- eep
"This option is deprecated, as it is conceptually flawed." -- man psql
[ Parent ]

If you're arrested by the Police by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #17 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:58:03 AM EST

For any offense, you get put on the DNA database and it's vitually impossible to get off even if you are innocent.

[ Parent ]

: But we have nothing to hide! by Tonatiuh (2.00 / 0) #36 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:14:28 PM EST

And those policemen are very nice!
Frankly sometimes I think we deserve to lose our freedoms, while people in earlier generations had a natural understanding about these, people nowadays simply don't care, no amount of shock tactics seems to move the population to any political action...

[ Parent ]

Yeah I saw this by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #18 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 09:59:43 AM EST

Worth mentioning that the officer in question could have been sacked if the complainant hadn't said he didn't want to take it further.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Tempting, except by Herring (2.00 / 0) #19 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:06:11 AM EST

the complainant might want to be able to drive more than 3 miles without being pulled over.

At least when the Tories got in, they didn't say their priorities were "Mining, Mining, Mining" - Mark Steel
[ Parent ]

: What I'm saying by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #21 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:09:26 AM EST

Is that the police recognise that that individual officer broke the law and were prepared to act on it. It's not an example of a bad law, as cited in this diary.
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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

What we need by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #27 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 02:03:47 PM EST

Cameras that automatically upload to Youtube.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

I wonder if you can do it by Greener (2.00 / 0) #30 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 05:10:41 PM EST

with modded firmware and those wi-fi SD cards. And a nearby access point obviously.

Or possibly just a portable AP with onboard storage you or someone else nearby carries separately for the camera to automatically dump photos/video to as they're being taken.

[ Parent ]

: Cell phone by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #31 Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 05:12:40 PM EST

I think it's just a matter of the right software on a current cell-phone.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

Waterloo station .... | 41 comments (41 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback


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